Head Tax on CBC TV with Oliva Chow vs Raymond Chan

CBC TV hosted Toronto Councillor & NDP candidate and Raymond Chan Minister of State (Multiculturalism) on TV this morning.  This issues is becoming big and bigger as more and more Chinese Canadian head tax descendants become more aware of the issue.  I just had a phone call from a stranger that saw the broadcast - and asked me how to find her grandfather's documentation.  Expect this more and more...

Host(s): MIKE DUFFY

MIKE DUFFY: Well a murky chapter in Canadian history has resurfaced in this federal election campaign. Just prior to the fall of the minority government, the Liberals announced an agreement with the Chinese-Canadian community. They would be given millions of dollars to build an educational facility to acknowledge that Canada had put restrictions on Chinese immigrants called a head tax which was in place from 19, I'm sorry 1885 to 1923. But many people say the deal doesn't go far enough. Others say it will open up a Pandora's box of litigations from other ethnic groups. Joining me tonight in Vancouver, the Minister of Multiculturalism, the Honourable Raymond Chan, and in Toronto the NDP candidate in that city Olivia Chow. So, Ms Chow, what's wrong with the proposal the government's put forward to recognize that the head tax was a wrong thing?

OLIVIA CHOW (NDP Candidate): I don't know, Mike, why it's so difficult for a Canadian government, the Liberal party, to actually say "sorry", apologize for the wrong so that the 250 people that are still left, that are still alive that have paid a head tax could at least get a sense of justice. Apologize and then begin the reconciliation talk so that they can perhaps get a symbolic compensation. Doesn't have to be too much. We did it for the Japanese-Canadians. Why can't we do it for the Chinese-Canadians?

DUFFY: Let me just go back over the ground for people who may not be aware of this issue. What the government is saying is that instead of giving money to individual people who were harmed by this, as the Mulroney government did for the Japanese who were interned during the Second World War, the Martin government is saying let's give a general grant to the community and let the community use it to build a kind of cultural centre, a memorial museum to remind future generations of what happened. So there is a different approach between the two.

CHOW: It's also, the way the money's being doled out is not at all transparent. And one of the groups that are receiving the money is not formally established yet. The Montreal Cultural Centre that was announced actually doesn't quite formally exist. So it's murky in the way that where is the money going, what's the formal application process, who is qualified? Are these people are special connected friends of the Liberal party? Is that why they are getting the money?

DUFFY: No, no, they would never do that.

CHOW: Well I don't know what the Gomery inquiry is all about.

DUFFY: The culture of entitlement. Well, we've lost Minister Chan somehow. The satellite went down. We're working on that.

CHOW: Maybe it is the ghost of the people that have actually passed away. It's actually quite sad.

DUFFY: It's not a very good omen. But while we try to get him back, how serious is the division within the Chinese-Canadian community?

CHOW: If you consider the day that this was announced, this deal was announced, it was all very secretive, but when it was announced, one of the local Chinese stations did a poll. Eighty-eight percent of the Chinese-Canadians that phoned in said, no, this is terrible. This is not good. Twelve percent said ah, maybe this is a good thing. So you can tell that a lot of people said, look, already a lot of these seniors have passed away and shouldn't we at bare minimum apologize and then do the reconciliation so that a historical wrong can be overcome. And just going, just throwing the money out there is a wasteful of money and it doesn't do anything.

DUFFY: So the choice, and we're still trying to get Minister Chan, so the choice is between giving several million dollars to a community centre to build a kind of museum, and giving cheques to individual people. Would it be the same amount of money? What if somebody who doesn't know this says, oh, they're just looking for free money from the government.

CHOW: Well, actually there are certificates that they have to pay. It doesn't have to be a big amount. It could also just be a symbolic amount. And maybe some of these head taxpayers don't even want the money. I think the key thing is respect them, ask them what they want to do with the money. Some of them may not want the money. They may want to use it for education purposes. Fine. But at least ask them, respect them. One of the group that...

DUFFY: Ms. Chow, I'm sorry, the Minister is back on the line. Minister, our sincere apology, I don't know what happened. You've been able to hear our discussion? RAYMOND CHAN (Minister of Multiculturalism): Yes I have been listening.

DUFFY: We just didn't have your picture and sound. So now you've heard Ms Chow's point of view. Tell us why the government did what it's doing and what you hope the reaction from the community will be.

CHAN: First of all, the head tax thing is a very terrible thing that the past government have done in the 100 years ago. And...

DUFFY: Maybe some Canadians don't understand that. Any Chinese coming to Canada during that period from 1885 to 1920, whatever, had to pay how much for every single person? They had to pay the Canadian government to come here.

CHAN: Close to about $500. And it is something that is terribly wrong.

DUFFY: And in those days it was a heck of a lot of money.

CHOW: You could buy a house.

CHAN: The issue is, Mike, is that the government's position is that we have to acknowledge that this kind of thing was terribly wrong, and then we have to commemorate and educate our children and the children of our children to the dark pages of our history and make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen again. But the issue is that an apology would open up the Canadian taxpayers for unlimited liability, financial liability, and that's why you can't do it.

CHOW: Oh, excuse me. You know, this whole case has gone to the Supreme Court, and the courts have said that this is a political issue, that apology is fine, and they have the court case.

CHAN: No.

CHOW: They have a court case, and legally there is no other route to go, so don't hide behind the legal pressure. Japanese-Canadians had no problem. They had a compensation.

CHAN: The court has said that the government is not liable, but even if they are not liable and yet we still apologize and pay out compensation that would open up all the cases for everybody else.

DUFFY: It becomes an admission of guilt. You are afraid it becomes... CHAN: And also legally liability.

CHOW: No.

CHAN: For limited financial cases.

CHOW: Minister, it has gone to the, Minister, it has gone to the court.

CHAN: That's right.

CHOW: The court said that there is no case for it. So the whole liability, the legal issue is a red herring. Why wouldn't you apologize? Brian Mulroney, even though I'm not a Tory, apologized. There was no legal case. Nothing happened. He apologized.

DUFFY: But Ms Chow.

CHOW: So why is that a problem?

UFFY: Sorry, we're almost out of time. Interesting, Pierre Trudeau said no way to any group, not to the Japanese, the Chinese, no one because he said we are not responsible for the sins of our fathers. Brian Mulroney opened to the Japanese, and now minister, you've got all of this on your plate, not just the Chinese but many other groups, right?

CHAN: Everybody else, because the issue is that even though the courts have said that we're not liable. but at the same time if he decided to come and apologize then that will lead the government to be liable for everything that the courts said we're not liable for. And that would expose the Canadian taxpayer for unlimited financial liability.

CHOW: So let me ask you then, if you don't want to apologize, you don't want to compensate, why are you putting aside that money, and why isn't that money open for different groups to apply. What is it the criteria? You know that $2.5 million there is no criteria.

CHAN: This is a problem of you that you keep on... CHOW: Canadian household.

CHAN: You keep on saying that we hand out money, and now you are saying that we have not handed out money.

CHOW: You did.

CHAN: We have not. We're just coming together with the Chinese community to form a foundation with people from the success, from the Chinese cultural association across Canada, with the Chinese Free Masons. We never seen that kind of historical support from across the country of the Chinese community on one single government project. They come together to form a foundation and then they would judge which project they should finance and which ones they shouldn't.

DUFFY: Mr. Minister, Olivia Chow, thank you both for joining us. Terribly sorry for the technical problems earlier. That's what happens sometimes with live TV. We appreciate you both for coming in tonight.

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